Manbites Dog Theater welcomes the first guest company of its Other Voices Series this year, a brand-new two-man show called HELLO PENIS: A MAN-IFESTO, directed by Colleen Mylott, running one week only, Wednesday - Saturday October 24-27. Speaking by phone recently, Manbites Dog's Associate Managing Director Katja Hill interviewed the show's creators and performers Joseph Baker and Kevin Poole, a Duke alumnus.

MDT: OK, so let's ask the really important question first: What do your parents think of the title?

JOE: I don't know. Maybe my mom's weird. They love the title, my family.

KEVIN: My dad's a minister and he got a kick out of it at a conference telling a roomful of religious folks his son was doing a show called HELLO PENIS. I guess I got the idea to stir up the room from him.

JOE: You know, I've been doing experimental theater for twelve years, and the titles are the least bit of concern for my family by now. With HELLO PENIS I've gotten more reactions from my extended family questioning my sexuality.

KEVIN: Yeah, the title's misleading to some folks. It's interesting to see the way maybe THE VAGINA MONOLOGUES helped to open familiarity with the word in public. When I say the word "penis" in this title, telling people about the show or whatever, they just stop breathing and give me a weird look. It's not even "dick" or "cock" but the actual, biological term. Joe came up with the first part of the title. I came up with the second.

MDT: It's interesting that you brought up Eve Ensler's famous play. Do you see any similarities between your work and hers? Is there any connection in what the plays try to accomplish politically?

JOE: We get this question a lot. "Are you the companion piece to THE VAGINA MONOLOGUES?" Never in the conception of the piece did we sit down and say, "Hey, you know that thing? Let's do a male version of that!" And I haven't gotten any response after a performance that said, "This looks familiar." So I will say that we're talking about issues that we feel are contemporary, now, and for real, which we feel are universally male. We've hit the wall in the conversation about maleness.

KEVIN: I think it's kind of funny that Ensler's show comes up so often when we talk about our work. Someone said we should call our show "Cocktails."

MDT: Oh, you mean "cock" and then T-A-L-E-S.

KEVIN: Yeah. "Cocktales."

MDT: Wow.

KEVIN: I mean, sure, we've seen one or two performances of THE VAGINA MONOLOGUES and, in terms of structure, we can tell you that HELLO PENIS is much different. Ours is a narrative with a plot. There are comparisons that can be made, but the challenge has been where and how do these stories get told, and how deep can you go?

MDT: Is there a certain audience you're hoping for here at Manbites? What would you like your audiences to take away from seeing your work?

JOE: Well, I think men in general. It could sound like I'm dismissing the question, I know. We've been asking ourselves, why can't men have a conversation that goes beyond football? Why is it so hard for us to really connect intimately? The first audience we had showed a large range of ages, so everyone had a different take on it. A lot of men came up to me and said, "Thank you, I haven't been able to express this." I think a lot of it comes from being a wartime culture.

KEVIN: I think the show does speak to men especially but I'm looking for that conversation between men and women. There have been times when we've talked about the show to people and they don't want to hear it. One woman said, "Oh, you're a 30-year-old white male. What do you have to complain about?" It's not about complaining. It's about asking questions and opening the idea of male intimacy. And once you use that word, people question your sexuality. So does that mean that intimacy is considered only sexual? Both Joe and I grew up in strong feminist households--in what, for us, was a fairly feminine culture overall. Not to dismiss at all the big issues of patriarchy and oppression that do exist, but do men coming out of a strong feminist culture face an additional set of challenges, such as apologizing for who they are, or even sensing the right to be men? We are struggling. And women need to be a part of this conversation. I'm open to anyone who wants to get in on it and talk.

MDT: What do you mean by "peaceful warrior"?

JOE: There's a book called THE WAY OF THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR which I read maybe twelve years ago. It's based in Shambhala tradition and I was struck by the contradictory images contained within those words: peaceful warrior. It's about going through a transformation your will, spirit, and body in a peaceful way, becoming a warrior without guns and ammo, fighting the good fight with passion and your heart. Basically, you could say it's using your body and mind together in order to follow your heart.

KEVIN: At Naropa, where we just graduated, we followed a curriculum based in Buddist tradition. The founder of the school wrote another book about the path of the "sacred warrior," the basis of a contemplative practice at Naropa. As artists, we try to create a skillful means to be a peaceful warrior and share the message to audiences through our art, use of theater, gentleness, compassion, love, peace....

JOE: Discipline.

KEVIN: Yeah, discipline too. And we're trying to connect another idea of maleness or masculinity to these things. Most of us associate the idea of a "warrior" with aggression or fighting. Like Joe said, it's a warring culture we're in right now. So we're asking how we as men, as Americans, and as theater artists can put forth different models with words like "warrior", "fight", "peace", and "theater", getting to a richer level of intimacy that's lacking on a larger social and political level.

MDT: Can you talk a little more about "masculinity" or "maleness"? I know my head's probably full of stereotypes, but as creators of this show--and, as men--I'd like to hear what you feel you're up against.

KEVIN: In our exploration we've gone into stereotypes a lot--and sometimes we find ourselves within them! It's a challenge to push against the stereotypes that hold us and, yet, are part of who we are. One thing specifically challenging for me to uncover was this notion of being a dancer. Naropa's an incredibly physical program and we ended up incorporating everything we learned into the show, but who am I to call myself a dancer? I'm a man. But of course some of the most famous dancers in the world are men. Barishnikov, and who's that other guy? I knew growing up that dancing was not cool and more importantly not male, so to find this dancing in my body and mind--to confess that they aren't separated--to start to move and say "I am a dancer"--that's a huge challenge to my socialized masculinity and my understanding of it.

JOE: The show asks, What is masculinity? I think it's about legacy and passing something on. So how do we pass masculinity on? What is it to be a man now, what is the TV telling me to be, what is my father telling me to be? No one else can give you that kind of guidance like your father can, whether he's an active part of your life or not. It's about passing on the torch.

KEVIN: And even with the title, we're asking these questions. For example, Is my manhood based only in my genitalia? Oddly, the way we put the questions out there--living in a space of questioning rather than knowing--this is considered a feminine principle in Buddist teachings. And the theater is an ideal place for this approach.

MDT: Thinking back to something one of you mentioned earlier: men "apologizing for who they are." Would either of you like to say more about that?

JOE: Yes, that's a loaded subject. It's a challenge to work with a show like this, because you can't fully explore the topic without coming up against the fear of challenging what is politically correct. We don't want to put something hurtful onstage and we don't want to act out an ignorant stereotype as we try to claim our own malehood, either. We're interested in what real power is--I'm not talking about George Bush power. So, who can tell me when I've really claimed it?

KEVIN: We've had strong mothers who were active in the feminist movement. We went to school in the mid-90s. We'd like to think these are old issues but we're still dealing with centuries of male patriarchy and domination. Facing all of this guilt, I wonder if there's been a loss of power of self for men, a difficulty feeling grounded or a worry about being inadequate. Are we so overly conscious of not offending people to the point that we can't say anything at all? In many ways I'm just as ignorant as the next guy, but by using a skillful means in theater, at least I have a way to explore the questions in a creative, conscientious and artistic manner.

MDT: Have either of you thought about becoming fathers yourselves?

KEVIN: Yes. My wife Agnes and I are discussing the possibilities. There are big issues though while we think of it.

JOE: As much as I want to pretend that I don't think about it, I've got a strong desire to have children. I hope I can do at least as half as good as my father did. I had a father many kids were jealous of. He'd work an eight hour day and come home and play with us.

MDT: That's great! You know, as soon as I asked that question I realized it was a hugely personal thing to want to know. And yet, as a woman, I get that question a lot, and I ask my girlfriends too without a second thought. But as soon as that question was out there, I thought, "Whoa! You can't ask a man that!"

KEVIN: You see? Isn't that interesting? Why are some things hard to talk about? These are the kinds of topics we hope our show will explore. What are the limits we put on maleness -- not just men's limits but women's limits, too.

MDT: So how did you put this show together?

KEVIN: Well, our training at Naropa gave us a lot to play with. With a background in experimental voice, body, text, dance, and movement work, we knew we wouldn't end up with a straight play. But still, we wanted it to have a shape.

JOE: We've used a number of different forms to hold various questions.

KEVIN: A lot of the exploratory stuff didn't stay--some music and writing was created just to support the creative process but fell away on its own. One craft we used was the approach of "moment work," a way of creating material from thin air. So, with our broad ideas of questioning masculinity and maleness, and a bunch of theatrical forms, we found a ton of these "moments." But we needed a way to put them together, an organizing principle.

JOE: We found a story that could hold a lot of the ideas. We didn't want the audience to feel like it was tripping on bad acid. We think we've found a killer form to play with.

MDT: What was it like working with Colleen Mylott, your director?

JOE: She really helped us pull a lot of the ideas together. She worked with the Tectonic Theater Project and Moises Kaufman. Basically it was many months of honing raw ideas down to gems.

MDT: Kevin, we consider you a Durhamite. What's it like to come back to the Bull City for your show at Manbites?

KEVIN: I'm so fuckin' excited. It's like...

JOE: A homecoming!

KEVIN: Yeah! I'm coming back to show -- no, not to show, that's not it. I'm coming back to share with my community what I've been up to. A community that's been so supportive of me. And it's scary. It's like, "OK, this is a part of me that many of you have never seen." One of the things is finding my writer voice. I did a lot of acting before in Durham but I'm finding a new relationship to the theater now, and it's like, "Hey, y'all, I'm back!" When I was in a band I would love touring. It's cool to have a new start in a city where my theater work began. Sometimes I wake up and wonder about the trip. I've always wanted to do my own show there. I remember Holly Hughes performing at Manbites. It's a place that brings some amazing guest artists to Durham and it's an honor to be a part of that now.

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